Eisenmann vs Meisterschaft [Archive]

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ZMates

November 22nd 2009, 21:04

So reading the posts on both, it seems that the Eisenmann is significantly quieter at low revs and throttle. Anyone here heard both and can verify? I vastly prefer the Ferrari sound to the American V8 sound, so I think I would prefer the Meisterschaft, but I need something that is (relatively) quiet when puttering around in town.

macfly

November 22nd 2009, 21:19

The Meisterschaft is only really quiet when you are cruising on constant throttle. Pulling away from the lights at a calm speed you still sound like a hooligan in a hopped up Mustang! However having had, and been around both pipes, there is no way I'd choose the Eisenmann over the Meisterschaft, it is so much more fun to drive in every way!

ZMates

November 22nd 2009, 21:40

any chance you're in LA in late Dec? I'd love to hear a sample.

thegunguy

November 23rd 2009, 00:56

If I didn't already have the Eisenmanns on my car, I'd get the Meisterschafts in a heartbeat, but they're by no means tame. The Meisterschafts sound like you're smashing the throttle to the floor when you're just pulling away at a calm pace. On run-over, they pop and crackle like a truckload of Rice-Crispies. They really are deliciously fun.

I wouldn't classify either as anything but a European V8 sound.

If you want a better sound than stock, but don't want to go nuts, get the Eisenmanns. If you want a childish grin on your face every second of the drive, get the Meisterschafts.

macfly

November 23rd 2009, 01:01

Yes, I'll be here during the holidays, its my favorite time of year in LA, but there are a couple of pretty god sound clips of them in this thread (http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=1520&referrerid=2).

ZMates

November 23rd 2009, 08:30

The problem with the clips is that all the ones I have seen are made with video cameras that have auto adjusted mic volume--so you can't really get a sense for loudness.

As audio is one of my other hobbies, I plan on making some controlled recordings so one can compare stock to whichever option I do eventually get.

Norcal

November 23rd 2009, 15:22

I have the Eisenmanns on my car, but would like to get the Meisterschafts. And since the Eisenmanns are no longer available, you may want to buy mine. No rush, but I would like to do it in the next 6 mo. or so.

JoshB

November 23rd 2009, 18:33

The Supersprints are quite nice, nice quiet rumble around town, but sounds very "american" when opened up. I am running with cats but no resonators, just straight test pipes.I will post if I borrow a friends video camera.
Joshb 2002 silver/ red/ black

ZMates

November 23rd 2009, 18:56

JoshB

November 23rd 2009, 19:33

Yes running with their cats, no problems with emmisions as we don't test in NY like California, but I doubt if there would be a problem. I will ask the tuner who installed them.
JoshB
2002 silver/red/black

ZMates

November 23rd 2009, 19:35

I will ask the tuner who installed them.

I would very much appreciate if you could. I read on the M5 forum that one person was having lots of trouble with the engine warning light coming on. If you could ask if there was any ECU reprogramming involved, would greatly appreciate it.

regards, John

JoshB

November 23rd 2009, 20:23

I am running Dinan stage 5 software due to the mods affecting airflow (Dinan low restriction air boxes,plus Hamann headers) the only fault code that came up was for a failing O2 sensor which was replaced at that time. Expensive suckers to do four of them!
Joshb
2002 silver /red/black

ZMates

November 23rd 2009, 21:17

the problem this guy was having was with the O2 sensors. The fix was to disable the post cat sensors in the ecu--two other guys posted that they had to do the same.

Claus on this board also had similar problems with the Hamann cats (made by supersprint, I believe):

http://www.bmwz8.us/htmlL/chat_frame.htm

Edythe Schlossstein

November 30th 2009, 03:31

Norcal, Are your Eisenmanns the race version?

Norcal

November 30th 2009, 13:29

Yes, and it is very nice, not too loud at all.

Edythe Schlossstein

December 2nd 2009, 23:46

thegunguy

December 3rd 2009, 00:24

Like NorCal, I'd also like to make the switch. So, my Eisenmanns are available if anyone would like them. Also no rush.

pandaman

December 3rd 2009, 02:56

Erik, If your able to purchase some used Eisenmann at a reduced price I believe you will be pleased. I think I was one of the first to have the Eisenmann put on and I am totally pleased but there is a but. I have not had the opportunity to hear the Meisterschaft.
Pandaman

Norcal

December 3rd 2009, 13:32

Edythe Schlossstein

December 4th 2009, 02:50

We will stay in touch. Erik

365gtb4

December 9th 2009, 01:21

I too have the Meistershafts Race edition on my '02 Z8 and love it. They have changed the character of the car significantly. It sounds like a European Muscle car. All my friends say it sounds fantastic. Not too loud around the city, but you can definitley hear it.
After lots of years and lots of cars I have discovered that I can no longer own a car without these aural delights. Buy the Meistershafts and don't look back. You will love them.

rockminster

December 9th 2009, 05:23

Does anyone know the minimum volume required to get a group buy of the MS race exhausts? I would be interested in a set.

macfly

December 9th 2009, 06:10

You should call the importer, I think they are called GT Haus, and see what they say.

rockminster

December 9th 2009, 21:30

I have no experience coordinating forum based group buys but have placed an inquiry into GT Haus and will report back my findings. Stay tuned...

macfly

December 9th 2009, 22:00

Its easy, just ask them how many units they'd want to sell to give you a group discount rate, then post a thread here and see if you can get that many on board. Be aware we had a group buy from there a year ago, so quite a lot of those who might have wanted this already have it, so keep the number of units as low as you can, and negotiate the best price you can to be sure you get the most sales. Good luck!

Norcal

December 9th 2009, 23:05

Try to get the previous group buy price!

rockminster

December 10th 2009, 03:11

wasn't on the board last year and just ran a site search and couldn't find details on that group buy. Could someone kindly post the key numbers and/or PM them to me? Thx.

macfly

December 10th 2009, 04:12

I think we had 8 units at $1750 each, but the deal was actually arranged by Grease Monkey who sadly isn't on the boards as much these days. Also the dollar/EU exchange may not have been as bad when we did it.

jdillane

December 11th 2009, 22:01

I really have tried to stay stock but if a sweet deal for the Meistershaft race editions is announced, I may take the plunge...

rockminster

December 11th 2009, 23:00

Update: I've now traded emails w/ GT Haus and we're plannig to speak early next week.

Norcal

December 12th 2009, 03:00

Cool. Thank you. So am I to assume you will get those? (not eisenmans). Great to meet you and your son the other day. Please keep us posted.

rockminster

December 15th 2009, 02:17

I was able to work something out with Meistershaft distributor. I will post the info in the For Sale, Wanted and Group Buys (http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=19) forum. Please check it out there.

rockminster

January 26th 2010, 03:06

Gents,

Please see the group buy forum for an update on this group buy that expires in about 1 week. A short video of the 'before and after" can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIDTNO3BQVY

Lupin

January 26th 2010, 06:48

great video to give an idea...I noticed much more smoke from the meistershaft compared with the regular exhaust,is just because of the weather or what?

Lupin

January 30th 2010, 09:18

does anybody know , who sell the Meistershaft in Europe? possibly in Switzerland ?

Z8Bob

February 19th 2010, 16:37

Norcal, we have been thinking about putting the Eisenmanns on our car but would not make the move until the summer, so if you still have them then we'll have to get together. Do you think removing the resonators has any value? Erik

I had lunch with Henrik Fisker in April 2001. He said the only thing he thought the car lacked at the time was a good race exhaust, as the car was maxed out for German sound level of 73Db. When he later drove my car with the Eisenmann Race Exhaust, he said it was exactly how he thought the car should sound. I think so too.

I'll try to bring it to Oregon in August and we can wake up the neighbors.:3gears:

Bob

macfly

February 19th 2010, 16:49

Bob, it would be fantastic to have you along in August, make sure you book your hotels asap, as several of them are almost full already. Also will you want you car transported up, as I will need to know how many spots we want on the transporter.

Z8Bob

February 19th 2010, 17:02

I'll work on the reservations and if it all works out, yes I'll want to share the transport too.

macfly

February 19th 2010, 18:05

Wonderful, keep me posted.

jwgerritsen

August 9th 2011, 18:41

hi friends, i am planning to install a meisterschaft, are there any others around so we can setup a group buy again?

thegunguy

August 9th 2011, 18:52

The difficulty in a group buy is making it work by geographical market. It seems like you're in Europe. The previous group was based out of the US, and the deal was done with the North American supplier of Meisterschaft. So, I'm not sure how this would map out.

That being said, I'd love to have the Z8 spec Meisterschafts, but I'm not sure I trust the company or their supply chain. Meisterschaft itself may be a fine supplier, but the NA group really mucked up the previous group buy in supplying a lesser product than was specified, which sounds pretty dull compared to the Z8 Spec or the Eisenmanns in my opinion. To my knowledge, only one of the group has had the proper spec exhaust replaced after a year wait. There's just something that's not right with that group from a customer service perspective.

I'd support anyone wanting to take the lead to form a group, but it's very much a case of "buyer beware". You may not get what you're expecting.

jwgerritsen

August 9th 2011, 19:01

That does not sound good..... I am indeed in Europe (Netherlands) and have a personal contact who has been working on senior level for Brabus (the Mercedes-Benz tuner) and has direct contacts through his professional network in the world of tuning.

If we have a group of a certain size I can ask him to arrange directly with Meisterschaft. Shipping from here to the US with UPS or FedEx should not be that difficult?

thegunguy

August 9th 2011, 19:05

If you do anything, make absolutely sure that it's the "Z8 Forum Spec". The neutered version that was delivered to the group buy is pretty tame except at startup, when the system is cold. It is better at 4k and beyond, but it's no where near as good as the Z8 Forum Spec. It's a 3 vs. a 10.

jwgerritsen

August 9th 2011, 19:12

Thanks, and how does the 'Z8 Forum Spec' relates to the normal 'GT Racing Performance Exhaust'?

that one can be heard here: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIDTNO3BQVY&feature=related

thegunguy

August 9th 2011, 19:15

See my previous post. That video is of a cold motor. It's much quieter when warm, and it's way less than the Eisenmann Race or the Z8 Spec Meisterschaft.

jwgerritsen

August 9th 2011, 19:18

ok clear and lets see if there are any others interested

macfly

August 9th 2011, 22:55

I'd suggest you start a new thread with a poll, but find out what kind of price at what quantity you can do.

Norcal

August 10th 2011, 03:53

It's my understanding that the Meisterschaft brand is owned by the US company. While they are poor in responding, they should come through if you are patient. Be sure to spec the "GT-Z8 spec", as it is WAY louder, and tons of fun! The regular GTs are a disappointment to me vs the Eisenmanns I replaced.

///M Blitz

August 10th 2011, 11:42

ok clear and lets see if there are any others interested

I'm interested, depending on what kind of deal we get, but only if its the "Z8 Spec" that Andrew has.

jmosk

September 4th 2011, 19:17

I am happy with my Eisenmann's.

Norcal

September 4th 2011, 22:34

Yes, the Eisenmanns are great.... I just needed a bit more "throat".

Z8Mania

September 5th 2011, 13:34

I am very happy with the sound of the Eisenmann as well. A friend of mine who is from Germany remarked that the Z8 sounds a bit more "American" with the Eisenmann. My reply: "well, this car is an American Z8!" :) I can hear a bit of that American V8 sound but its much more refined. Im sure there are other choices that are really good but Im so happy with what I have I choose to leave it alone and enjoy. Btw- I still get people sticking their hands out of their rolled down car windows giving me a big thumbsup with the Z8.

Norcal

September 5th 2011, 15:13

You've got that right J. Multiple times per day, It's crazy.

jim

September 6th 2011, 12:42

I like loud, & bought the "street" Eisenmanns, should a bought the "race'. Streets are too quiet for my liking.
Jim

Norcal

September 6th 2011, 14:25

Try strait pipes from the cats back and let us know. Should be cheap and easy to try.

Z8doc

September 7th 2011, 01:45

I like loud, & bought the "street" Eisenmanns, should a bought the "race'. Streets are too quiet for my liking.
Jim

Contact Eisenmann and see if you have a customer satisfaction return. Seems that I know of people who did what you have done and got them exchanged.

I have the Race Eisenmanns and love them. :3gears:

Sean

November 14th 2011, 13:40

I am just about to buy ther Meisterschaft GT Z8 Spec. Are there still concerns with GTHaus's customer service or have they fixed the problems?

I really hope these arent too loud for city use (people have loud cars here in Dubai anyway)

Thanks for all the helpful posts.

Sean

macfly

November 14th 2011, 14:05

They are quite loud, but if you're very light on the gas they can be almost civilized, however on a rev matching downshift you'll wake up the entire neighborhood!

thegunguy

November 14th 2011, 14:19

This past spring, Norcal and I caravanned from our homes to the CA central coast. I was in front most of the way, and I could almost always hear his car behind me on backroads, even with the top up on the car.

The Z8 spec is childishly fun, but if you have any concerns of it being too loud, I can almost guarantee that they will be. They are VERY loud under power or when cold. You will never go unnoticed.

On customer service, I only know of the group buy that was done through the board a year or two back. The group was expecting the Z8 spec, but everyone received a lesser version that was quite tame. To my knowledge, only one member of the group received a replacement exhaust from GTHaus after many months of back and forth. So, from that perspective, I have a hard time supporting them. They exhaust is MAD fun if you're cool will the full-time hooligan sound, but the company gives me pause.

I just looked at GTHaus' site, and I'm pretty sure that they just service the USA (although they have a fax number for international orders). Have you checked to see if there's an Meisterschaft vendor that services Dubai or at least close (Europe)?

Norcal

November 14th 2011, 15:09

If you like seriously throaty sound, you'll be fine. Yes it's load, but as stated, if you stay out of the hard throttle, it can be very civilized, with little notice at cruising speed (easy to hold a conversation, even with the top down) and no drone. As for GT Haus, they have been a problem to deal with, it took almost a year for them to replace my quiet version with the loud ones i ordered. Just know it will be "a Process". I'm pretty sure "Meisterschaft" is their own brand... a nice fictitious German name for a system made in Korea for an American company!

Sean

November 15th 2011, 02:43

Thanks guys. I guess I have to try and decide between the GT Z8 spec (louder) and the regular GT spec (not as loud).

GT Haus said that they are the worldwide dealer. I didnt see anyone one close by Dubai and frankly Dubai has xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx customer service. I am waiting for some additional information from GT Haus on shiping costs etc, but they have been responsive so far (pre-sale). I'll guess I'll have to take a punt on their customer service, but I'll put it on record with them that I have heard that they arent the best and get them to commit to being better (a trick I learned from some lawyer buddies).

I think you are right about the various nationalities involved.

After I get set up I'll try to send a sound file of the new pipes

Cheers

Norcal

November 15th 2011, 05:05

Don't bother with the quieter version. They are better than stock, but perhaps not worth the trouble and expense. Why don't you try some of the ideas that have been kicked around, like removing the resonators or the whole mufflers? Should be cheap, and fun to try.

thegunguy

November 15th 2011, 15:53

Please let us know how it goes. It'd be great to have some positive feedback on GTHaus to start to mend the bad.

I really need to test the straight pipe approach. It's a fairly "easy" test for anyone that already has aftermarket exhaust, but if you're still in OE config, it means cutting.

Norcal

November 16th 2011, 01:57

Really? can't you unbolt from the back of the cat, and have a replacement strait pipe made?

thegunguy

November 16th 2011, 02:15

No, you can't unbolt from the back of the cat. Everything behind the manifold is one welded piece - the cats, all 4 O2 sensors, resonators, and "muffler". The only breaks are at the block and at the 4 to 2 Y where the system begins to turn to the rear of the car.

So, testing on a "stock" car would mean you're just running straight from the manifold with two pipes per side. That's why I was suggesting that an Eisenmann or Meisterschaft car would be the easiest test since the aftermarket cans are flanged on after the pipe is cut. This would keep everything in place for emissions but with no "mufflers". This is also how I would suggest a emissions "legal" straight pipe - basically, just remove the muffler.

Norcal

November 16th 2011, 02:29

....and leave the resonators (as discussed in the other post).

thegunguy

November 16th 2011, 02:35

I'm going to try it in the next few weeks. I get the feeling that the Z8 Spec Meisterschaft is really little more than an empty can with VERY little baffling. Based on where my pipes are cut, I think I would need little more than 24" of flanged pipe to extend to the tips, basically accomplishing the same thing. That's one of the nice features of the Z8 - you just need to get the raw pipe close to the finished tips that are integrated with the bumper cover.

Well...and fabricating some hangers.

Norcal

November 16th 2011, 02:42

Cool! Let's get together for a side-by-side after TG.

Sean

November 17th 2011, 09:27

Here is what I had back from GT Haus. Lets see how they do on this sale

Cheers

Sean

SEAN: The guys on the Z8 forum mentioned that there were some customer service issues when they bought from you. Have these all been resolved? I am not keen to buy into any problems and would like to know that any problems at GTHaus are in the past.

JERRY: As for problems in the past, Executive and Upper Level Management such as myself have made the necessary changes to ensure that all aspects of our company, from Engineering to Production to Sales/ Distribution have all improved vastly in the last 12 months. Any misgivings in the past are due to inconsistencies in training and ideals in services to you and the interested public. We feel that the changes made are noticeable and palpable. You can feel it.

Jerry S, Sales and General Manager
GTHaus Meisterschaft Premium Exhaust Systems
Tel: (630) 787-1600
[ www.gthaus.com (http://bmwz8.us/vbb/www.gthaus.com) ]

Norcal

November 17th 2011, 14:07

Just keep them on a short leash! And prepare to be patient.

Z8Mania

November 17th 2011, 16:39

Well he has a good name. So he's got that going for him ;)

thegunguy

November 17th 2011, 22:21

Lovely non-answer.

macfly

November 18th 2011, 03:32

Yes, it was a seriously brilliant piece of gobbledygook!

candersoh

November 20th 2011, 04:48

i was part of that group buy a few years ago for the meisterschaft z8 spec. i finally got around to installing mine last week, then found your message here after the install. i called jerry at GTHaus last week to discuss this and he said that this group order happened before he came to the company and he appeared unaware that there was a problem with the shipment. is this right? he said that he could come up with some options but they sounded like they would come at my expense. wondering what everyone else has done that was part of this group order...

macfly

November 20th 2011, 08:04

Everyone had problems with them, because they didn't supply what was ordered. A few of us got the pipes changed after a huge amount of back & forth, others gave up, or sold them on, nobody came out of it feeling warm & fuzzy about it.

2112

November 20th 2011, 16:44

After reading thru this, I feel bad.

The Daisey chain with the Quaiffe LSD and the group buy on the Eisenmann Mufflers went extremely well.

macfly

November 20th 2011, 18:04

Yep, sadly GT Haus were really not cool to deal with in any way, shape or form.

Norcal

November 27th 2011, 14:12

Yes, but eisenmann was through GT Haus too??

Klaney

November 29th 2011, 02:15

Ok...Ran the car for a few weeks after having OE mufflers and resonators removed...definitly to loud to run the streets of Socal and frankly not sophistcated at all...I once had an El Camino that sounded better.

Today we installed four (2/side in line) Magnaflow Racing mufflers...very small 4"od X 6" in lenth

http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/shopexd.asp?zone=main&id=9431

The car sounds great!! DB's I would guess dropped by maybe 10...but really cleaned up the barbling tinny "La Bamba" sound of the straight pipes. A nice throaty tone that may still be a bit much for the guys that like the stock sound...but a fairly reasonably priced alternative to the big $$ systems.

I will try to get a video posted as soon as I can.
FYI...Herb's Automotive in Signal Hill worked with me on the sience project.
About $1,100 including the 4 little mufflers. Very clean install...
Kevin

thegunguy

November 29th 2011, 02:28

Nicely done. It looks like you just replaced the OE resonators with the Magnaflows and removed the OE mufflers. I'm anxious to hear the video.

My last two weeks have been decimated with a family crisis. I'm catching up like mad this week, but I'm hoping to pull the Eisenmanns this Saturday and run with just the resonators. This will be a good comparison with your install. My guess is that they'll be quite similar as the Magnaflows likely perform similar to the OE resonators.

jawz

November 30th 2011, 03:56

Any idea what the weight savings is with this exhaust configuration?

thegunguy

November 30th 2011, 04:07

Seems like we have the stock vs Eisenmann weight savings on here somewhere. I'll reweigh everything when I experiment soon.

macfly

November 30th 2011, 06:42

I think the OEM mufflers were around 22lbs each from memory, the Miestershafts were 12lb, saving around 20lbs, but this stripper system should save around 35lbs.

Z8doc

November 30th 2011, 12:44

:thumbsup: I too am anxious to hear the video. The Eisenmanns I think sound great for my tastes and hence, not likely to switch again, even though this configuration may save a few pounds, to me, the additional expenditure of $1100 on top of what I have already spent for the Eisenmanns is probably not worth it.

I do have a new e93 M3 cabrio (the spouse's car) though that needs some exhaust tuning so this / something similar might work.

///M Blitz

November 30th 2011, 12:57

I do have a new e93 M3 cabrio (the spouse's car) though that needs some exhaust tuning so this / something similar might work.

I'd kill for the video of Cindy sitting on a stop light revving up that bad boy after the new exhaust. If she's got a grin on her face...priceless!:D

ZMates

November 30th 2011, 18:43

Today we installed four (2/side in line) Magnaflow Racing mufflers...very small 4"od X 6" in lenth

http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/shopexd.asp?zone=main&id=9431

Have I totally misunderstood what resonators are? The Magnaflow racing mufflers are exactly what I understood our resonators were: a perforated section of pipe surrounded by a larger section of pipe that creates an acoustic cavity. (i.e. a helmholtz resonator). If I haven't misunderstood that, there is not much reason to take out the resonators as they do not create significant acoustic impedance (they don't reduce engine power). However, they are not broadband sound absorption devices, so they are usually combined with mufflers that provide broadband sound absorption (and do have a high acoustic impedence).

macfly

November 30th 2011, 18:57

I'm also a bit confused, is there any 'padding' in there at all, or is it just a perforated pipe within and empty can that breaks and scatters the sound waves?

thegunguy

November 30th 2011, 19:13

My understanding is similar to ZMates. The resonators provide some level of sound level reduction and to a lesser degree tuning.

I think it's in another thread, but Kevin mentioned that he could have used the resonators vs. the Magnaflow. However, for the "experimental" phase his shop made the cut behind the cats to test what an emissions "legal" straight pipe would be like. From his comments, it was both too loud and raw. I'm not sure why the shop didn't suggest testing with the resonators, but I could see it being easier just to weld up a new pipe with the Magnaflows.

So, my thought is that eliminating the mufflers while using the stock resonators will have a very similar sound to Kevin's setup with no resonators and the tiny Magnaflows in place of the original or aftermarket mufflers. Further, I have a hunch either of these options will likely sound pretty close to the Meisterschaft Z8 spec. If it's too loud, I'm also curious about placing something like the Magnaflows behind the resonators.

My hope is that we can find a reasonable alternative to the frankly ridiculously priced Meisterschafts from GTHaus. They're wanting $5k for the Z8 spec now. I'm sorry, but that's just not right, especially considering their past service record.

I'll know more Saturday morning assuming all goes to plan. However, plans aren't working to well in my life of late.:D

ZMates

November 30th 2011, 19:51

I'm also a bit confused, is there any 'padding' in there at all, or is it just a perforated pipe within and empty can that breaks and scatters the sound waves?

OK, here's the theory:

A "pure" helmholtz resonator is just an acoustic capacitance (the cavity) and an acoustic inductance (the perforations). The imdepance and inductance combine to form a resonance exactly like a weight attached to the end of a spring. If you hold the other end of the spring and move your hand up and down at different frequencies, at certain frequencies your hand will move, but the weight will not and at other frequecies the weight will move more than your hand does. The frequencies that the weight moves the most are the fundamental resonance plus the harmonics.

If the resonator was a pure inductance/capacitance helmoltz resonator, there would be no reduction in sound energy. The noise reduction comes about because there is also resistance in the resonator. The perforations create drag when air moves through the holes, the cavity is also filled with insulation that also creates drag when air is moving through it. The resistance reduces the sound energy, but it only does so when there is air moving through the perforations and in the cavity itself, i.e. at the resonance frequencies. At the non resonance frequencies, it's not doing much at all. You can, however, connect another helmoltz resonator tuned to half (or a quarter, eight, etc.) of the fundamental resonance of the first resonator to increase the frequency range where you get attenuation.

Another factor to consider is that the helmholtz resonator only works when a quarter wavelength of the sound is large compared to the dimensions of the cavity. This means at higher frequencies the resonator is also not doing anything.

thegunguy

November 30th 2011, 19:57

Great stuff.

Unfortunately, the parts catalog doesn't give us much to go on either. BMW lists what we typically refer to as the resonators as the "center silencer".

Klaney

November 30th 2011, 20:00

Gun,
I suspect you are right....OE resonators will likey sound
Similar to mine depending on what they are packed with?
I have thought if still a bit to loud.. Easy to add another
Up by the tips where the old mufflers were.

thegunguy

December 3rd 2011, 02:23

I pulled the passenger side tonight. Tomorrow morning, I'll pull the driver side. When done, I'll have the stock cats and resonators but no mufflers.

I fired it up to test even with one side. I think it's going to work. :thumbsup:

Norcal may be coming by in the morning with his Z8 Forum Spec Meisterschafts for comparison. We even talked about getting an iPhone dB meter to measure different RPMs, etc.

thegunguy

December 3rd 2011, 02:51

I'm going to move this thread over to the Upgrades section with all the other exhaust threads to help us find it later.

thegunguy

December 3rd 2011, 20:05

I just got back from a drive without the Eisenmanns, and my initial thought is this is going to work those looking for the "hooligan" sound similar to Meisterschaft Z8 Forum Spec. Norcal was going to come by with his Meisterschaft car for comparison, but he wasn't able to make it. We're going to try again next week.

The sound is very similar to my recollection as the Meisterschaft Z8 spec (MeZ8). The MeZ8 has a little more reverb and what I'd describe as a more tightly focused sound. However, the difference could be attributed to my testing with the raw pipes under the car (about even with the axle). Having a completed pipe to the false tips in the lower bumper could deliver the slight change in focus.

You definitely get more snap, crackle, and pop on overrun, just like the MeZ8 (which is one of the fun reasons to have them). The sound is at its best in the low to mid RPM range, but I think this is more of a trait of the S62 as I've yet to hear a Z8 system that has that small V8 wail as revs build (would be great).

Low RPM and steady state cruising was no different than the Eisenmanns, which are as tame as the stock configuration. So, freeway cruising should be very comfortable. I didn't get on to the freeway since the lower bumper is still off the car. However, any change in RPM creates immediate delicious noise, just like the MeZ8. Driving my neighborhood was whisper quiet with controlled throttle.

The next step is to test with Norcal's car and get another owner's opinion. Again, we hope to do that soon. I do think the setup has enough potential that I'm going to have pipes made to approach the tips. The great thing is that I can take in my Eisenmanns as a pattern to have the pipes bent. Seems like it would be cheap enough to do for a test, and I really want to know how the sound will be out of the back of the car, not under it.

More to come, but this is looking pretty good.

I'm really kicking myself for not doing some dB testing with the Eisenmanns first for before/after comparison.

redz8

December 4th 2011, 05:20

Great work and reporting. Looking forward to the followup work.

thegunguy

December 19th 2011, 17:37

Latest update:

Norcal made it by for a bit yesterday afternoon, and we got to do some comparisons. We used an iPhone sound meter app to measure the sound levels of each setup. Certainly, the app wouldn't pass for scientific, but it works for comparison. At idle, cruise, accelerating, revving and blipping, the no-muffler setup measured basically identical sound levels, usually 1 or 2 dBs apart if not the same.

The tone is close but different. That's to say casual observers would probably not spot the difference, but our calibrated Z8 ears could hear different voices. The comparative description of the Meisterschafts would be "tighter". The sans-muffler setup was more boomy/echo-ey (those are scientific words, obviously). There's also more tenor in the Meisterschaft, but again, it's not too far off.

So, why the difference?

Well, my test sans-muffler setup is as-is from removing the Eisenmanns, which means the pipes stop about at the rear axle, where the pipes were cut several years ago. So, the sound exits the pipes well underneath the car. Furthermore, the pipes stop right were the heat shielding for the original mufflers starts, creating a bit of a megaphone effect. Also, the system length is about two feet shorter. If you consider these three factors, I "believe" they explain some of the sound difference.

So, what's next?

This morning, I'm headed to my local muffler guys to get them to create pipe extensions using my Eisenmanns as templates. This should be super basic, and it will help answer the difference on the sound compared to the Meisterschafts on Norcal's car. If the sound doesn't tighten up a bit, I may try a small inline muffler that could be sourced easily for anyone. Again, my goal with this project is to get a great sound at much more reasonable price that we can support for many years to come. Plus, this will be a great way to shed quite a bit of weight from both OE and aftermaket setups. "Simplify, and add lightness" ~Colin Chapman

The overall take-away from our comparison was that the sans-muffler option is very livable with sound performance just like Meisterschaft. It's quiet when you want it to be and hooligan loud when you want that too. Norcal was really surprised at how civil my car is without mufflers. I guess the resonators and the dense cats do a lot to tone down the madness. It'd be totally acceptable as an improvement with the sound as-is, but if I can tighten it up just a tad, it will be even better.

Klaney, I have two questions:
1) What did you do about the void in where the OE mufflers or aftermarket mufflers would live? I have a concern that this cavity will become a high-pressure pocket at speed, possibly deforming the lower bumper, or even worse popping the joints and letting it drag. I'm considering having a plate integrated in the pipe that would prevent this.

2) I just realized that you did four Magnaflows (tow per side). They do like REALLY small, but I can't find them on their site. The link you posted leads to product that is 30" in length. Your's look abut 6".

PHOTOS:
1) lower bumper removed - Eisenmanns exposed
2) note the "megaphone" effect of the heat shielding. Possible diffuser mod! LOL :rotflmao:
3) with Norcal in the Livermore vineyards.

///M Blitz

December 19th 2011, 17:47

Hey somebody was busy this weekend. Thanks for the report. This is getting really interesting now.

macfly

December 19th 2011, 18:12

Wow, you're getting much better weather up there that we are down here!

thegunguy

December 19th 2011, 18:30

The past ten days or so have been close to perfect. 60s and sun.

macfly

December 19th 2011, 18:38

We've had loads of cold cloudy days, and some serious downpours!!

Klaney

December 21st 2011, 03:27

Gun, not sure why the link I posted is now going to the wrong muffler.
Tried to copy the correct link but it's not "pasting"??
Anways the mufflers are the 4"D x 6"L Race/Specialty series 14156
Apparently they used to make a 12"L but now only the 6"L is available.

Never really considered the air pocket thing...but looking at it I think there is enough deflection from tire, suspension arm, etc. To prevent that from be a real issue??

I am really liking the sound by now....

thegunguy

December 21st 2011, 03:33

Yeah, I figured you just extended to the false tips, but did you not notice that this leaves a large cavity that is exposed underneath? Exposed to the under car airstream, this could lead to more pressure on the lower fascia than with mufflers in place. I need to look everything over a little more in-depth, but there may be potential for deformation or possibly dislodging the lower fascia at speed. That wouldn't be good!

I can't get back to this until after the holidays, but I'm trying to work with Peter Pan to find an exhaust group that could also fabricate a plate to keep close put the void.

candersoh

January 13th 2012, 02:34

Norcal

January 13th 2012, 03:56

Good luck! I did the same thing. He said the same thing. It took almost a year to get the replacements. But I finally did, so that's good!

Sean

January 13th 2012, 09:04

I just received the GT Haus formum editions and will be installing them this week. Will provide some impressions later

Sean

candersoh

January 13th 2012, 14:59

Good luck! I did the same thing. He said the same thing. It took almost a year to get the replacements. But I finally did, so that's good!

indeed, although i'm happy with a wait as the quieter version is already installed on the car. more importantly i'm happy that i'll be getting what it was that i paid for. jerry says he'll fast track this for february delivery (he claims they have improved the production process). nevertheless, they said that i can keep the quieter version so it looks like i'll have two sets of pipes...

Norcal

January 13th 2012, 15:25

He did the same for me... I sold the quieter ones to a board member

thegunguy

January 13th 2012, 15:29

For anyone that's considering any exhaust mods in the near future, I should have reference design for the muffler elimination soon. It will provide Meisterschaft like sound at less weight and cost. More to follow.

2112

January 14th 2012, 03:33

i thought i would relay my most recent interaction with GT Haus. i was part of the group buy awhile back for the GT Haus meisterschaft (loudest version, they changed the name a few times making it confusing) but like most of you i wrongly received the quieter version. mine sat in my attic until late december when i finally put them on before knowing that it was wrong. nevertheless, GT Haus is very well aware of the situation and is planning to make it right. i had a very constructive conversation with jerry (630-787-1600) today and i'll be receiving the correct GT2 (z8 forum edition) at no additional cost. i encourage those who were part of that group buy who wrongly received the quieter version to give him a call. he was apologetic and very understanding. he also is keenly aware of how important this forum is to their brand and wants to clean up this mess. i should be receiving mine in late february/early march...

Mine, still in the factory wrapper, are stamped FW 45/06. I was part of the very first group buy and specified the "race" version at the time. It has been a while now and I obviously have not installed them. Does anyone know by my I.D. stamping if I got the race version or not?

For anyone that's considering any exhaust mods in the near future, I should have reference design for the muffler elimination soon. It will provide Meisterschaft like sound at less weight and cost. More to follow.

I am interested to hear your findings. Did you work out if there are any air cavitation problems with the body work?

Would the Z8 club retrofit trim piece help secure the rear fascia and prevent any problems?
.

thegunguy

January 14th 2012, 05:34

From what I can tell everyone in the group buy did not get the expected version. What was delivered was barley improved from stock and well below the Z8 Forum version (the latest name). We'll see how they do rectifying each case.

On the sans-muffler system, I'm talking to the fabricator about how to deal with the cavity. The solution will likely be some sort of integrated plate blocking air flow. The Club plate is in the center of the rear bumper and unrelated.

2112

January 14th 2012, 23:37

From what I can tell everyone in the group buy did not get the expected version. What was delivered was barley improved from stock and well below the Z8 Forum version (the latest name). We'll see how they do rectifying each case.
Any way to recognize which one you have without installing?

On the sans-muffler system, I'm talking to the fabricator about how to deal with the cavity. The solution will likely be some sort of integrated plate blocking air flow. The Club plate is in the center of the rear bumper and unrelated.

Anxious to hear. I thought the club plate may help minimize air ingestion somewhat.
.

thegunguy

January 14th 2012, 23:58

Short of calling GT Haus and getting the markings or looking at one of the Z8 Forum edition cars, I don't have an idea of how to visually identify the various models. However, if you were part of the group buy, I'm going to say with 99.9% certainty that you don't have the Z8 Forum version (I believe this use to be the GT2 and GT before that - there have been several name changes, hence all the confusion). The only parties to get this model specifically were GM with the initial design and Andrew, after returning the lower model. Norcal was part of the group buy, and he, like all the others, received the "just above stock" version instead of the expected Z8 Forum version. As detailed below, he went through the year-long process of having them replaced by GT Haus at no cost. We'll see if their process improves.

It sounds like they're still willing to replace them, based on the previous post. So, I'd suggest calling to complain regardless.

On the Club plate, this is to protect and seal the leading edge of the center of the lower bumper where it can hang in the under-car airstream and deform over time. It doesn't have any bearing on the voids left from removing the mufflers. Two separate areas.

2112

January 15th 2012, 00:25

Thanks Rifle,

I am more interested in your system. If it works out, I would prefer to go your route and maybe just sell the Eisenmanns.

Looking forward to your findings. :thumbsup:

thegunguy

January 15th 2012, 01:09

After putting the Eisenmanns back on today to take the car to the fabricator, I discovered a possible advantage of removing the mufflers. While it'd be a project for the ambitious, the void left from the mufflers could potentially be recovered in added trunk space.

There's a beam that forms the inside edges of the shelves on either side of the trunk. Outboard of this beam is a trapezoidal shape, which ,from looking at drawings and photos, seems hollow below, covering only the heat shielding for the exhaust and the mufflers. By running pipes only behind the resonators, you could create two small wells on both sides of the trunk. Together you might generate one square foot of new space, which isn't much, but it'd be perfect for a hidden tool kit or smuggling illegals across the border.

Anyway, it'd likely require cutting some of the plating, but from what I can tell it wouldn't interfere with anything structural. A little extra space seems to always be needed on trips in the Z8. Could be nice.

ZMates

January 15th 2012, 08:49

Norcal was part of the group buy, and he, like all the others, received the "just above stock" version instead of the expected Z8 Forum version.

I bought mine in the second group buy. I don't have anything to compare it with here in CH, but it does sound an aweful lot like Andrew's videos and it's damn loud. I'm looking for ways to quiet it down. I did, however, get the titanium version, which could explain why I might be the exception.

thegunguy

January 15th 2012, 14:43

The ones in his drive by videos were the original pipes he had (HP at the time). He sent those back for the GT2/Z8 Forum edition (then called the GT), which is what the group buy specified. Since you ordered the titanium versions, yours may be different.

2112

January 15th 2012, 19:15

I do have the full length Dinan headers (without frame/body modification) so it may end up being a good combo?

Rifle, are your exhaust manifolds stock or do you have headers?
.

Z8doc

January 16th 2012, 02:54

What was delivered was barley improved

If "barley" improved the muffler, wouldn't hops be the next logical choice to add? :thumbsup::rotflmao::beerchug:

warren

January 27th 2012, 01:01

I got schnookered by Jerry at GT Haus and installed the Meistershafts from the group buy a few years back. Short of replacing with the new GT version that everyone seems to like, has anyone tried simply removing the resonator and leaving the "old" Meistershafts in place?

Norcal

January 27th 2012, 02:17

Not that I know of... but we've been wanting to try. We did (gunguy) try just removing the entire muffler... sounded about right, just a little "open".

warren

January 27th 2012, 12:13

I am going to give it a try. Will post a before and after video.