2002 Topaz / Creme (#61782) - Sold

[jpklecker]

Due to the current financial markets and personal financial concerns, unfortunately I am thinking of putting my 2002 Topaz / Creme up for sale. It has all the goodies and has been maintained in excellent condition, currently with just over 40,000 miles on it. It has not been driven hard and it does not have the performance package, but there is no frame damage and the shock towers are straight and true. The only slight down side is some road rash on the nose due to the usual stones and such encountered during highway driving here in Arizona.

What woudl be a reasonable price that I should expect for this wonderful car? I also have the BMW manual lift system with the Z8 mount that would be included with the car as well as a new NOAH car cover. I know it's not a great guide for this car, but Kelly Blue Book currently lists $85,500 as the going rate.

Also, would there be any interest amongst the group for this beautiful antomobile?

[macfly]

The honest answer is that market will bear what it will bear, and your patience will also be a factor in deciding what that is.

$85k for a car with those miles is fair to low, I'd like to see you get much closer to 100k, and suggest asking 107k.

Hope that helps, and good luck with your sale.

[Z8Mania]

Im sorry to read this and good luck with the sale. I think your numbers are reasonable given the miles.

[redz8]

There are more Z8s on the market today than any other time that I can remember, starting from 2005. If you can wait, do so. Regardless, good luck with the sale.

[Norcal]

Yes, tons of them on the market. Go to AOLAUTOS.COM for a look at what they are all ASKING.

[Z8Mania]

Wow- the asking is all over the place.

[hayvenhurstkid]

I have been watching the used luxury car market very closely. Prices are falling rapidly. If it can happen to houses, it can happen with cars as well. Six months ago I offered a customer of mine $47,000 for his 2006 Mercedes Benz S65 sedan, which when new, cost him $175,000. He turned down my offer. I just took it in trade last week for $35,000. It is in mint original condition with 19,000 miles on it. I have already wholesaled the car off, but it is getting ugly out there. Plenty of inventory, not too many buyers unless the deal is too go to pass on.

[Z8Mania]

But do you think this will continue? I think if its likely to continue then maybe the idea is sell now while you can. If you think in a year or so it will come back then its better to wait.

I'm curious to get everyone's thoughts because mine are that this is going to continue for at least a year. People are just not feeling very positive right now.

Yeah its a bear of an economy out there.

[Norcal]

Unless something drastic changes for me, I'm not worried about resale for 10 or 20 years. I'd never sell now if I didn't have to. If the economy improves in a few years, the car will be that much closer to true classic status and should rebound well. I say ride it out if you can, and enjoy the car while you have it.

[macfly]

ditto that, in a few more years we may be getting too old to enjoy the cars, gas maybe rationed, the world may be at war. I would put money on this downturn lasting till 2016, based on everything I've been reading. Unless you have to sell the car to pay rent and groceries, I say keep it and enjoy it to the fullest. Live for now, because nothing is promised or certain for tomorrow.

[eurospeedz8]

Hello everyone. As Marty said it's not getting any better the resale of high end cars specially toys like these out of warranty cars are going south quicker then most people think i only have 22 yrs. of experience in this business but i can tell you based on the current BMW Z8 market it's not going to get any better soon i was just offered a 2003 stick car with 5000 miles for 100k and i passed on it the current buyers are very couisous and if they don't seem to get a deal they will just wait. if anyone pays attention to ebay every BMW Z8 that listed is being re-listed 3 or 4 times and still no sale.

[macfly]

Well, I hate to say I knew it was coming, and I guess it's really here now - deflation, and we all have to deal with it. Sure our cars are falling in value, but still not at the rate that the cars they were tested against have. I would hate to be selling an 02 AM V12 just now!

However our cars are the least of our worries, this cycle of deflation and depreciation is going to last till around 2016, and wipe out all of our asset based wealth, but we'll still be left with our assets if we have the wealth to hold on to them through these tricky times ahead. To be honest that is in large part why I unloaded everything excess last year, and if all the analysis I'm reading is right, this autumn it is going to become clear just how serious this mess really is.

The first domino could be the overthrowing of a national government, and the cancellation of its debt (Greece) or an irrational war (Iran-Israel) or even just the realization that no one really has any idea how to cope with the most serious global financial crisis in history. Either way, keep gold, keep food, keep safe, and don't waste any resources on anything non essential.

Good luck to us all!

[Z8Mania]

Andrew Macpherson V12? They made one of those? I want it! :)

[hayvenhurstkid]

If you don't have to sell, keep your car. Everything in life is cyclical. These bad times will not last forever, but I do agree with Andrew that this could be around for another five or more years. I live in a very nice neighborhood in Sherman Oaks in California and there are tons of houses for sale. The ones that are priced too high just sit with no buyers. Only the ones that have been drastically reduced are selling. At the peak of the real estate craziness in 2005, my house was appraised at $1,150,000. I think today I would be lucky to sell it for $800,000, but since I plan on staying here for at least another five to ten years, I really do not care. I also agree with Andrew that now is not the time to be buying non essentials, and that is why prices are dropping. The consumer is scared and not spending. The Z8's I see at really high asking prices just sit and are relisted over and over on EBay with no buyers. I have a bet with a very good friend of mine about where the DOW will be at the end of the year. It is just a friendly bet; dinner at the winners favorite restaurant. He says DOW 9,500. I say DOW 7,500. I am already researching out some of my favorite restaurants.

[redz8]

I also agree with Andrew that now is not the time to be buying non essentials, and that is why prices are dropping.

Life is a gamble. But rather than have your money sit in the bank buy as much real estate as you can. This could be an opportunity of a life time.

[Z8Mania]

Depending on what kind of RE youre talking about- much of it is still overpriced- often by as much as 50%. Wait.

[hayvenhurstkid]

I hear a very strong whooshing sound. Could it be the other shoe dropping? I think so. Prices will continue to fall on everything except some commodities.

[redz8]

Agree, anything you buy in this economy, better be a fantastic deal or ...

[AHudson]

Due to the current financial markets and personal financial concerns, unfortunately I am thinking of putting my 2002 Topaz / Creme up for sale. It has all the goodies and has been maintained in excellent condition, currently with just over 40,000 miles on it. It has not been driven hard and it does not have the performance package, but there is no frame damage and the shock towers are straight and true. The only slight down side is some road rash on the nose due to the usual stones and such encountered during highway driving here in Arizona.

What woudl be a reasonable price that I should expect for this wonderful car? I also have the BMW manual lift system with the Z8 mount that would be included with the car as well as a new NOAH car cover. I know it's not a great guide for this car, but Kelly Blue Book currently lists $85,500 as the going rate.

Also, would there be any interest amongst the group for this beautiful antomobile?


Is this car still available? Sent a PM.

[riverflyer]

Curious, did the car ever sell?

Agree with many of the above observations. I had an appraisal, in 08 for over 1.2 on my main house. Seemed high at the time but helpful on the balance sheet for RE acquisition. From what I have seen, would be lucky to get 700k presently and falling as the people that need to sell are still dominating the marketplace.
On the other hand, I just closed escrow on a 3bdr/3ba home on top of a hillwith awesome views forever and on a dbl lot with extensive green belt on two sides. Bought it for 95k! The house had been undergoing a remodel that was mostly finished. New roofs, gutters, thermal glass and tile in the bathrooms. Missing was the kitchen and exterior paint. The kitchen issue was a problem for first time buyers getting loans so the bank had to dump the house, or at least felt they needed to. They actually put it up for $91k and unlike some sales were not going to do a waiting period to try and get multiple offers so I went in at $95k the first day and got it.I am going to do some additional remodeling starting this week and have a renter at $1500 per waiting and ready to move in.

My take, although no expert on economics, is RE and silver.

[jpklecker]

The car has not yet sold, nor does there seem to be any serious buyers at this time.

[riverflyer]

What did you decide to list it for?

[jpklecker]

I had listed it for $99,900 per Andrew's thoughts listed earlier in this post; that was back in September / October. I have not re-posted for another price and I think the original one has run out.

[Z8Mania]

I must have misread the mileage in the original post. I think with the mileage, frankly the number you are asking is a little too high. These cars seem to fall into two categories: drivers (more than 10k miles) and collectors (less than 10k miles). The best collectors will get in the 120-140 range. The drivers will wholesale around 65k right now. So that could be a starting point for making a guess as to where a reasonable price would be. Advice: keep the car unless you must sell. The mileage, the color (though I think it gorgeous), the fact that its also a lot of miles w/o the performance package, all will scare off buyers.

[redz8]

65K, ouch, I didn't know prices have dropped that much :(

[EDEZ8]

Dear John,

I'm sorry to learn that the current economic conditions have forced you to consider selling your Z8. From my perspective, the ultimate selling price is somewhere between the low and high values shown above in the thread. I feel there is intrinsic value for a buyer in purchasing from the original owner because the accessories should be readily available (i.e., "The book", wind deflector, etc) and the maintenance and service history is understood. Timing is important too for a potential sale, few people are seeking a handsome convertible sports car in January, but come March... If you have the ability to wait, I would consider re-listing your car in the spring and using this time to fine tune your vehicle for a potential sale.

[riverflyer]

I agree and the delta between mid winter and mid spring could be 3 to 5k. Wait if you can.
Like real estate, best to get the "right" price early on and not turn away interested buyers by overpricing.

Except for the luckiest, most of us may have to look at this option before all the dust settles. Cars can be a great source of enjoyment and pleasure but you cant pay the mortgage with them unless you sell. At some point it becomes an easy decision. Hope it works out. I do have one friend who has been making noise about mine every time he sees it and lately has been even more interested. He would be a good fit as he knows bmw somewhat and would only want a driver but I doubt he would go 99k. Best of luck.
John

[Z8Mania]

Remember that 65k number Im throwing out is what the wholesale would be.

[dnalor007]

hi together, z8 marktet in europe also under pressure but not so worse like in amerika. what we,ve seen that some z8 's already get importet also into switzerland and the price,s are lower. cheers marty

[hayvenhurstkid]

I saw in the news today that 2011 will see a flood of foreclosures in housing that will dwarf previous years forcing home prices even lower. Used luxury cars, I feel, are going to go the way of home prices and continue to drop, even the semi collectible ones like the Z8. Time will tell.

[Z8Mania]

There is no doubt that there is pressure out there and while there is still a pretty healthy market for the flavor of the month (Ferrari 458s are actually getting a few dollars over these days), once you're yesterdays news, its a fast slide down. Either wait and buy when its comfortable or enjoy it! (or both!)

[Scott Pettit]

Jerry,

What are you basing the "120-140 range" statement on?

[Z8Mania]

I just saw a 2003 with 1500 miles go for a number in that range.

[AHudson]

I have been looking for either a Z8 or another 993 for some time now. Seen numerous Z8s - probably overpriced per condition to begin with - languish at their 'near' 100k mark for months. Same ones on the market, sometimes a half year later.

However, the Z8 is really incredible that it holds its value as well as it does. I mean, not many other 'modern' cars come close. So, even at 70k after 10 years, that's HALF the rate of depreciation for most 10 year old cars.

Still looking for a car, miles are okay. Have inquired about this one over the past few months as well.

Though the market may drop some more, the Z8 will still be a very desirable car, likely retaining a greater portion of MSRP than nearly all cars of similar age.

[redz8]

Anything that is last to drop is going to be first to recover. The z8s may be under pressure, but they are holding up rather well relatively speaking. So, if you can hold on to it, do so.

Cheers!

p.s., 2011 isn't going to be a good year for sellers.

[macfly]

The good news is by 2016 all this will be well behind us, just the next five years are going to be interesting.

[AHolzmann]

I read that approximately half of the Z8's produced were shipped to the US. When I started looking for mine last year, a number that I had called on had been shipped to Europe. Any idea how many are left in the US?

[macfly]

Since the dollar got destroyed starting in around '07 the outflow has been continual. At the height of the exodus, and the top of the market back in '09 it was as many as 2 a week being sold back to Europe and Russia, so between 250 and maybe as many as 500 have left the states based on my guesstimate.

[dnalor007]

Cheapest Price in Switzerland as you see-> around usd 129'600.--

BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
Top gepflegtes
Fahrzeug! Cabrio 5.2001 silber 66'000 km CHF 135'000.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
DER Klassiker der
Zukunft.... Cabrio 6.2005 silber 44'500 km CHF 144'800.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
Cabrio 5.2002 silber 38'000 km CHF 148'000.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
Wunderschöner Z8,
schwarz/schwarz und
nur 33000km Cabrio 11.2001 schwarz 33'000 km CHF 149'900.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
BMW Performance
Package, inklusive
Z8-Buch Cabrio 9.2001 silber 40'500 km CHF 154'000.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
CARLIFTING - sehr
schönes Fahrzeug Cabrio 7.2001 silber 62'000 km CHF 160'911.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
Top gepflegtes
Fahrzeug! Cabrio 12.2002 silber 12'000 km CHF 165'000.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
*** Liebhaberstück -
sehr gepflegt *** Cabrio 6.2000 schwarz 80'000 km CHF 172'900.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
Cabrio 7.2002 schwarz 16'700 km CHF 179'000.-
BMW Z8 BMW Z8
silber met. / Leder
schwarz,
TOP-Zustand!!! Cabrio 7.2001 silber 9'000 km CHF 189'900.-
BMW Z8 Roadster BMW Z8 Roadster
Cabrio 9.2000 schwarz 10'600 km CHF 199'900.-

cheers marty

[Norcal]

Are these in Euros or what?

[macfly]

Swiss Francs, which are almost exactly 1 to 1 with the dollar at the moment.

[dnalor007]

Are these in Euros or what?

no in Swissfrank's :-) ->save Haven ... :)

[dnalor007]

Swiss Francs, which are almost exactly 1 to 1 with the dollar at the moment.

usdlr even a bit lower than 1:1

[Charles]

For what it is worth, at RM Auctions in AZ last Friday Lot 206, a 2001 blk/blk Z8 (60592) with "less than 19k miles" sold for $83,600, including buyer's premium. You can see the details at rmauctions.com.

[Z8Mania]

Yes- the problem for that car without knowing anything more would be the miles. Not high by our standards (we are drivers mostly here) but for the collectors you better be under 10k.

[macfly]

Here is a direct link (http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=AZ11&CarID=r152) to the car. I can see rust on the brake calipers, and a lot of dirt in the engine bay, enough to tell that this isn't a cherished one owner car. Based on what I can see in the pix, and that this has to be the least desireable color combo, I'd say it is a fair price for an early build. This car is young enough to have all the problems, including the potentially expensive Vanos which got addressed somewhere around 60750.

This is a screengrab of all RM's Z8 sales...

[redz8]

$83,600 for a car with the issues pointed out already is actually a good deal for the seller. Cars in superior condition, full documentation and history, PP, and less miles have been sold here in this forum for a few K above that (guess how I know).

I still think anyone looking to buy a Z8 for personal use should hang around this site and buy from a fellow enthusiast. There is no better way.

[Charles]

Based on vin dates and numbers in the door wells I have seen from various auction pix, I thought the RM Auctions car (by its vin) was built 12/00 or later and did not have the vanos issue. The BMW publication says it only affects cars built before 12/00, and cars built between 9/00 and 11/00 only need a fix that is done without opening up the engine.

Am I wrong here? The reason I am asking is that I am looking at an auction with a vin number that would indicate a build date between 9/00 and 11/00. Is the fix expensive or risky if the engine is not opened up?

The advice on this site has been great and saved me from making a mistake on more than one occasion.

[macfly]

Honestly if I was buying I'd look for a car after 61500, there were loads of little upgrades that make it worthwhile. The Vanos issue has led to complete top end rebiluds, which run around $15k. Look in the Z8 Club section, you can download the PDF with the exact info here (http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showpost.php?p=9976&postcount=1), its called 'Changes prod E'.

[Charles]

Andrew, the downloaded link says that the vanos was modified in 9/00, with the caveat in the other publication I saw posted on this site said cars built before 12/00 also needed a portion of the kit. The download also says other vanos changes were made for cars built beginning 9/02, but does not specify what they are. There was another download that said the soft top strings were improved for cars built in 02.

So from a vanos perpective I guess there are 3 cars, (1) the pre 9/00 (or pre 12/00) builds, (2) the 12/00 to 9/02 builds and (3) the post 9/02 builds.

Anecdotally I have heard that the 2002's are nicer than the 2001's, but I am not sure how much the difference is worth.
I am looking for a silver/black driver in the 10,000 - 25,000 mile range, although I did look at one 37k mile car. Should I post in WTB?

This thread has strayed a bit from its original goal of helping John figure out what his one owner, 41k mi, Topaz/Creme 2002 (61782) is worth. I wonder if there is any more help you can give him, other than he needs to put up more than one picture on his listing? There is a big sales price spread of between $83k for a 18mi 2001 (the RM Auction car) to the "$120 - $140k" range for a 1500 mi 2003. Does his mileage move him below $83K or does his condition and the fact that it is a one owner 2002 move him above it?

One fact left out of the recent posts on the RM Auctions car was that the seller only really received $69k. The rest of it was buyer's premium and seller's commisssion and fees. So there is lots of room between $69K and $83k + for negotiation if individual parties really want to buy and sell.

[macfly]

I think I already answered that in the second post of the thread.

[AHolzmann]

If it helps, I purchased a silver/black in September for $100K. The car is pristine with 4300 miles. I looked at 7-8 others from those at Crevier for $130K to a 9800 mile car for $90K. Mine did not have the hardtop at the time, but one was ordered and included in the price. the cost was about $13K. I was looking for a low mileage car and avoided the auctions as most of those cars seemed to have been thru a lot of owners. Hope this helps.

[Charles]

Granted. Maybe more pix in his add will help him....and time. It is a rare color combination.

[Z8Mania]

Charles,
This is a good point on the buyers premium. So for purposes of discussion say that car is really worth somewhere in the middle around 76k.

FWIW, I have a very early build 2000 car with 30000 miles where its been driven but never incredibly hard for prolonged periods of time and the car runs like a top. No problems whatsoever with the VANOS.

[redz8]

Jerry, that's very good sign that after 30K you've not had any serious mechanical problems. My slight long-term worry, if any, is the carbon buildup and VANOS, two issues that are sporadic in nature and poorly understood by even the experts.

[jpklecker]

Unless something changes, I am hoping to not sell this car at this time--largely due to the terrible market but also since I do love the car. I am going through a divorce and the wife wants it sold - so she can benefit from the money of course. She is contesting that the car is both of ours even though I bought it, paid all but $24,000 of it which I offered to pay her for, plus she doesn't know how to drive a manual shift so could never drive it.

[macfly]

Divorce is such an ugly event in life, I really think the laws governing it need to be changed. There is no reason being the victim of love should cost any man half his estate.

[hayvenhurstkid]

Can you say prenup?:rotflmao:

[Z8Mania]

Even then, its a sad business.

[riverflyer]

Unless something changes, I am hoping to not sell this car at this time--largely due to the terrible market but also since I do love the car. I am going through a divorce and the wife wants it sold - so she can benefit from the money of course. She is contesting that the car is both of ours even though I bought it, paid all but $24,000 of it which I offered to pay her for, plus she doesn't know how to drive a manual shift so could never drive it.

John, hope that keeping the car works out. Best solution presently. Contrary to some of the posts, I have been hearing some bullish noises for quality collector cars. Maybe some of you guys in the business can update the marketplace attitudes?

[hayvenhurstkid]

The market is actually recovering and is very good, but only on certain blue chip, investment quality vehicles. Also, big money is gravitating towards original, unrestored cars as opposed to trailer queens that have had 100 point restorations. The rest of the market is quite turbulent. Like houses, you have to really price your car at a realistic value if you want to sell. If you don't care if you sell or not, then ask above market. That seems to be the case with most Z8's. I hope things get better, but I am afraid there is still too much bad news and world unrest out there. If you see Gold and Silver start to drop, IMHO, things will be getting better. As long as they keep going up, to me, that indicates a flight to safety and a vote of no confidence in our recovery.

[Z8Mania]

I agree with this assessment except I think on some cars, if the car is clean, then wether or not it was restored doesn't matter- it just depends on the model. The Z8s seem to be really split between a true collector level car (2003, under 5000 miles, but more than 500) and everything else. As to our confidence, I think its safe to say there is almost no confidence in the leadership at the executive or legislative levels to resolve the pressing issues of the day. I think if they can find a way to get their arms around the budgeting issues, it will give people a sense that at least we're making progress, we're not just stagnating along. That will give financial markets a boost, and also it will embolden the average citizen. My cynical reaction is they'll never compromise. I hope I'm wrong.

[riverflyer]

The market is actually recovering and is very good, but only on certain blue chip, investment quality vehicles. Also, big money is gravitating towards original, unrestored cars as opposed to trailer queens that have had 100 ponit restorations. The rest of the market is quite turbulent. Like houses, you have to really price your car at a realistic value if you want to sell. If you don't care if you sell or not, then ask above market. That seems to be the case with most Z8's. I hope things get better, but I am afraid there is still too much bad news and world unrest out there. If you see Gold and Silver start to drop, IMHO, things will be getting better. As long as they keep going up, to me, that indicates a flight to safety and a vote of no confidence in our recovery.

Will the money going into investment quality vehicles pull the market for the high end but more common cars along or is it just the very rare and unusual that are attracting attention?

[riverflyer]

Jerry, I hope you are wrong as well but also doubt it. Good description of what needs to happen. Seems the reality of decision making at executive and legislative levels in this country is so undermined by the constraints of the system that even good people with good intentions struggle to make meaningful change.

Personally, until we reach a tipping point on our outlook about the politics of energy (and of course the wars it engenders) I dont hold much optimism for sustainable change or growth.

[hayvenhurstkid]

Blue chip cars will not, in my opinion, pull up other high end cars. Cars like Ferraris, Porsches, Lamborghinis and the like will continue to drop in value. A customer of mine just called me asking if I thought the Mercedes SLS "gullwing" is a good investment. I told him it is a production car that will never ever have collector appeal. It may be limited production, but they still cannot sell what they make. Regarding getting our deficit under control and the US debt gaining stability in the future, I have said it before and I will say it again. You can debate until the cows come home, but the only way to balance our budget and try to reign in our enormous deficit is real simple, but painful. Taxes must go up and entitlement programs " Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid" must be cut. Both things are very distasteful, but there is no other solution. Period.
P.S. If you own silver, get out. Now. It is going to tank big time. Just my opinion.

[Z8Mania]

Marty, everything you just said, I agree with. 100%. The only way an SLS is a good investment is that its an investment in one's happiness. Then it works great. :)

[AHolzmann]

With all of this being said, I see a large number of Z8's that are sold going to Europe. What I have been reading is that the value of the dollar is going to continue to decline at least for the short term making American products cheaper on the world markets. I had a Lexus LS advertised on the TraderOnline last year and ended up selling it to someone in Guam. It was probably the easiest transaction I have ever done as the buyer wired me the funds and I dropped the car at a freight forwarder in LA. That being said, where do you advertise a car online so European buyers will find it?

[hayvenhurstkid]

Very true. If you buy what you enjoy then what it is worth at some future point in time should not be the main factor in your decision to buy. I do now subscribe to the Suzy Orman school of thought, at least until I see a real turn around in our economy, and that is " live below your means and within your needs." I know life is short, but I have put the brakes on unecessary toy buying. I still want to do it, but I also don't want to burn through lots of cash. I don't want to end up depending on the Government for my old age care. That scares me big time. Put your car on eBay. It gets worldwide exposure.

[Z8Mania]

Shouldn't one always live below their means? I think thats good advice no matter the economic seas. They can turn on a dime- our world is so complex- you just don't know.

Needs becomes a subjective matter. I remember growing up when cable tv was a luxury most thought was a waste of money. If you polled most Americans today, what they would call necessities, really aren't. I don't want to depend on the govt either but- aren't we paying into this system? Shouldn't we get a benefit?

[hayvenhurstkid]

Absolutely we should get benefits, but I am afraid as time goes on those benefits are going to be continuously reduced. I have been paying into the system for 35 years, so yeah, I expect to get something back out. The point I am really making is I plan to be able to support myself. Anything from the Government will just be a bonus.

[bwall]

Marty is right about taxes and benefits. . .. . . one must go up and the other must go down. I think that the American public has recognized this, but in order for this to happen elected officials have to act like adults. . . . . and I don't think they are ready for this, unfortunately.

Prices of gold and silver are driven by demand from the emerging middle class in China and India, not demand by central banks around the world. Look at trade history and you will see that this is a historical measure and store of wealth in these cultures, not bank accounts. Add to the fact that the governments in these countries regularly bugger their citizens and one can understand why the citizens do not trust paper money.

If we could switch big trucks to natural gas then we could do with a lot less imported oil, which would help the dollar alot. . . . And building a nat gas infrastructure would create jobs here at home . . . . . .. anyways. . . .

[Z8Mania]

Good points fellas.

[hayvenhurstkid]

The US should definately grow their natural gas infrastructure. The US has one of the largest stores of natural gas in the world. We could greatly reduce our demand for Middle Eastern oil if we do this. I also will only buy my gas at Valero. It is US produced, refined, and sold. I want to keep my petro dollars in the US economy. Also, the oil sands in Canada are starting to produce enough oil that within three to five years we should be able to import virtually all of the oil we need from Canada. Let the Middle East sell their oil to someone else.

[Z8Mania]

I didn't know that about Valero. I never even considered it. Thanks Marty. There aren't too many of them around here but I think I'll start using them.

Canada, eh? ;)

[hayvenhurstkid]

I watched an episode of 60 Minutes that originally aired last year. Saudi Arabia has 27 billion proven barrels of oil if no new discoveries are found. Canada's oil sands? How about ten times as much, or twenty seven trillion barrels of oil. It is more labor intensive and expensive to refine, but I would gladly pay extra to not send my money to the Middle East. Plus, I think it puts pressure on OPEC to keep their production at normal levels and keep pricing in line. Canada's oil sands currently produce one million barrels of oil a day. This will increase to three million a day by 2013. We import one and a half million barrels a day. My math says we don't need Middle Eastern oil, especially if we start using more natural gas. Let's face facts. The Middle East has been in turmoil for thousands of years and the discovery of oil has only made it worse. If we can wean ourselves off of their oil, we will be much better off for it.

[macfly]

The real issue here is we need to move beyond fossil fuels, as they are ultimately finite. At 6 billion and growing, the endeavors of the entire human race are in the hands of those who are pulling this finite resource out of the ground. As a forward looking business model this is simply not sustainable. I already have a bunch of solar panels on my roof, but once BMW get us the electric car I am planning to add more, and keep all my round town driving electric. That will cut my personal petro-consumtion from currently around 350 gallons a year down to about 100 gallons a year for the 2,000 odd miles I do in the Z8.

[hayvenhurstkid]

I agree, we do need to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, but as you know, the electricity to power you electric car has to come from somewhere. Either coal burning power plants, nuclear plants, etc. I think it needs to be a combination of all of the various sources of energy. There is enough proven oil in the world to last something like another 100 years, so all of us won't be around when it does finally run out, but the issue needs to be dealt with now. I am confidents that in 100 years, there will be new technologies around that we can't even imagine today that will supply needed energy to the world.

[macfly]

You missed the part about solar panels, I can charge an electric car for 100 miles a day based on my roof size, and the fact my office is at home. My daily driver does about 6,000 miles a year, going to the shops, taking the pups to the park, and shooting on location. My roof would allow me a potential 36,500 miles a year, so the excess can go back into the house.

Here in the sunny states we should make it mandatory that every roof is a solar device. Can you imagine how much power we could generate if we used the real estate on top of every building in LA to catch the suns power? We would eliminate millions of tons of coal and oil burning, and those two nasty thirty year old nuclear plants on our coasts too.

[hayvenhurstkid]

Good point! I completely agree with you.

[redz8]

We've been driving a natural gas civic around town for the past 3 years and like it. Fill it up for about $9 and get 200 miles per tank. No issues. Wish this technology was available on slightly bigger and better equipped cars...

[bwall]

I think that the 'energy balance' on solar panels is something like 15 years. . . . Just as it takes energy to produce the electricity that goes into the cars (as Marty pointed out), it also takes energy to produce solar panels. . .. . Hopefully, technology will allow us to produce solar panels at a much lower 'energy break-even' point soon.

[macfly]

Your figures are way off, it is more like 15 months. These papers are alreay ten years out of date, but show where the payback was then.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy99osti/24619.pdf
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

[Scott Pettit]

I would love to install solar panels but in my area, anything but a few panels to heat your pool are not allowed by CC&R's. Funny how that works.

[redz8]

You can debate until the cows come home, but the only way to balance our budget and try to reign in our enormous deficit is real simple, but painful. Taxes must go up and entitlement programs " Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid" must be cut. Both things are very distasteful, but there is no other solution. Period.

When it comes to our national debt, our dependence on oil, and general instability in the world, everyone seems to ignore the elephant in the room. We've been fighting meaningless wars for the past decade. Seems to me like a rather expensive way of dealing with a handful of cavemen, who coincidentally we paid to train and arm. If the issue was terrorism, we could just hire a handful of EL AL ex-agents to teach us how to properly secure our airports/borders.

Any wealthy nation must take care of its citizens. End of discussion on that. We can argue efficiency, but that's not the american way -- look at our cars, homes, roads and even body fat index -- my wife is complaining about our 4800 sq foot home being too small to entertain.

On the topic of oil, I don't really see our dependence on it any different from our dependence on Japanese cars, or Chinese toys, or Cuban cigars. We import what middle east can offer for less. This is a global economy and the best policy is to let free markets go where they need to go.

[bwall]

Thanks for the links. It's nice to be wrong on this! So, stupid question of the day: Why don't we have more solar panels in use? It can't be for lack of sunshine, so it is solar panel cost? cosmetics? too low energy costs? general awareness? something else?

[macfly]

Well, as Scott pointed out they are very unpopular with the power companies, they don't make any money if you have them, and so they lobby hard against them. When I put my solar panels up here in LA I was only allowed to generate 20% of the electricity on my bill, because that is the way LA DWP say it has to be.

These power companies should absolutely not have the ability to dictate what we can and can't do in our own homes. The idea of this being a free country is a joke, you can only do what those with the most powerful lobby groups say you can do in your own home. Is that really the freedom our parents and grand parents risked their lives to protect?

Tony, I'm also with you, the British wasted a hundred years in Afghanistan, to nobodies benefit, the Russians ten, and now the Americans, for what, so Halliburton and the Carlyle Group can profit from this endless absurdity. The cost of these stupid and almost certainly illegal wars would cover all our medicare, education and infrastructure spending, and allow to pay down our national debt. The problem is not social programs, it is absurd wars. We are witnessing the same over reach of empire that brought down Rome, England, Napoleon, Hitler, the Ottoman Empire, Alexandra the Great, the list is endless. As Churchill said those who don't learn the lessons of history will be destined to repeat its mistakes.

In case you missed the IMF's paper release last week, America has just four more years left as the world #1 economy, at the current rate of growth China's economy will overtake ours in 2016, and they are also our principal banker.

[redz8]

Very well put.

[Z8Mania]

I agree about the wars. And now were on to a 3rd?! :(

The solar panels should be used where possible. Why doesnt the govt convert the vast areas of the SW that it owns to massive solar farms? We could store the energy as compressed air or something else and allow it to move turbines as needed... Im not an engineer, I just have an imagination. Have a read of this- its pretty good.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/24/x-and-y-from-containment-to-sustainment/

[thegunguy]

I have a lot to add to the solar questions, but Sea World today has me beat. I'll put up my thoughts in the next day or two.

For now, I'll throw out...technology is really hitting its strides on conversion efficiency, but the ability to manufacture in large scale or at a cost competitive to fossil fuels keep solar off the menu in most states. In the US, energy is still VERY cheap.

[riverflyer]

I agree about solar being the best bet for our future. We have one house that is a net negative user, i.e. PGE gives us money after the annual settlement and a family of 4 lives there year around.
I am hoping to install an array here that will allow me to plug my electric car in and charge from the sun.

The oil sands sound really good until you look a bit deeper....Nowhere on Earth is more earth being moved these days than in the Athabasca Valley. To extract each barrel of oil from a surface mine, the industry must first cut down the forest, then remove an average of two tons of peat and dirt that lie above the oil sands layer, then two tons of the sand itself. It must heat several barrels of water to strip the bitumen from the sand and upgrade it, and afterward it discharges contaminated water into tailings ponds like the one near Mildred Lake. They now cover around 50 square miles!!

If even a fraction of the money we are spending on wars was invested in refining solar costs, battery technology etc, we would already be forging a cleaner and brighter future for ourselves and future generations.

[bvhbmw]

This thread is interesting, but seems to have moved pretty far away from the OP. Perhaps we should separate it...

[Z8Mania]

Agreed. Thats a good idea.

[macfly]

I know, I was wondering about that too. Funny the places conversations just break out on their own, its almost like partaking in some odd lab experiment seeing how ideas develop, as one thought runs into another and another like a spontaneous game of mental ping pong!

I'm not sure that we can break up a thread once its started on this software, and if you can I don't know how to, so this line of thought just has to run its course, unless someone wants to pick it up again by starting a thread in the main chat area.

[E92 M3 Owner]

A show on TV said cars generally drop to their lowest point at 20 years. After that point, if the car is desirable, they go up in value. I have not done the research to verify that statement. If correct, there is your answer unless the world economy changes drastically.

Like a good wine the Z8 will get better with age.

[macfly]

Back to the lead post, should I mark your car as for sale still, or did you decide to keep it?

[Kevin]

Is this car still for sale?
At the right price I may be interested